MAGA-Gary

 

We had an opportunity to interview Gary. Just Gary, but we can name him MAGA-Gary.

VFP: So what are your opinions on ICE operations in Minnesota. Are they OK to deport a five year-old to a camp in Texas with his dad. And then on to Ecuador.

Gary: Absolutely, if that is where they are from.

VFP: They are asylum seekers. Liam Ramos and his dad.

Gary: We have enough crazy people here. They can go to their own insane asylum.

VFP: It's not the meaning of asylum.

Gary: ...hm...

VFP: And other immigrants, they can ship them anywhere?

Gary: Sure, whoever will take them.

VFP: And the bystanders. What was Renee Good supposed to do when ICE yelled confusing instructions and one was pointing a gun at her?

Gary: She was supposed to get out of the car.

VFP: And Alex Pretti, was it OK to shoot him after he was disarmed on the ground?

Gary: I think he showed some sign of fighting back. I would have. But since he was armed, how would they know what was on him. But they could have handcuffed him, I’ll give you that.

VFP: ICE does not use handcuffs. I think they use zip ties. Moving on. Do we want Greenland?

Gary: Sure,  they might have some minerals.

VFP: What about NATO?

Gary: Fuck NATO, they never helped us.

VFP: Well, all the military actions we have had were a bit out of NATO areas. That would be UN peacekeepers. 

Gary: Fuck the UN.

VFP: Moving on. What about tariffs.

Gary: China should pay tariffs.

VFP: OK, suppose the Chinese wholesaler pays that tariff, isn’t he going to have to raise prices of the goods he then sells on to Home Depot? Whoever pays the tariff, your price goes up.

Gary: I’ll just go to Menard’s. But the main thing is that the Chinese pay. They have been stealing our jobs for years.

VFP: I think that would be Home Deport deciding to buy the cheapest products that led to that. That we lost those jobs. But we do make a few things here yet, like gas mowers. 

Gary: Yeah, I’ll buy it from my mower store, the guy fixes them too. Besides, Home Depot has mostly Chinese electric mowers. And a few gas mowers, riding mowers.

VFP: What do you think of the Trump Ballroom?

Gary: Looks fine from the plan. Maybe do the whole White House in marble?

VFP: Thanks for your time, Gary. Will you be voting for Trump in 2028?

Gary: Absolutely.

Angry Women and Toxic Males

Toxic males, aside from misogynist Trump, are all over all politics. From Vance to Greg Bovino.

The ICE activities are meant to be a show of force. To scare any further immigrants from coming and to shake things up to arrest some more.

Trump thus praises a violent mob; endorses torture; muses fondly about punching, body-slamming, and shooting protesters and journalists; and reportedly suggests shooting protesters and migrants. (Jonathan Rauch, Atlantic).

Roughly half of voters seemed to want some action on immigrants. There are some two million, they say, in Texas. Trump are and crew are now assaulting Minnesota, with no more than 100 000 without papers.

It looks hopeless. But I did find one person on my social media that sees this as a turning point. When enough...about 10%...of a population shows resistance, the people in power usually break. We are waiting. Here is her post.

The Toxic Male needs a submissive woman as his partner. In politics the Project 2025 ideas outline their plan. Keep the woman at home with kids. If she has a job, keep her wages low. The educational degrees, such as nursing, were labeled as not worth much. The education department had to be destroyed. They do not need education for the MAGA men but education for their women was seen as dangerous. Don't support careers, so student loans are not supported.

A special category of Toxic Males is tech billionaires. In their views of the world the likes of Musk and Mark Andreesen (Netscape inventor) are just like Trump. Attitudes about  women, anyone but white people and the way the WORLD has wronged them. With their billions, they can never be totally happy anymore. Wealth does that.

Trump and Corporations

They are bending at the knee. But it is all just business. Democracy is not essential for business, power is. Power over competition or a market. Power over federal regulation,

The effect of Trump on us voters for the past three presidential terms has been extreme. There are his fans and then the rest of us: get out of my life, Trump! But then there are corporations. And I never understood this part of politics.

Corporations are the one thing bigger than Trump in our lives. And in a way they are similar. Corporations do not care about you. You just make a deal for some benefits when you work for them. But even if your employer has some symbolic founder, the corporation is never your friend.

Then there is Trump and the corporations. Tim Cook brings some sort of goofy award to Trump. They sit with Trump in Windsor Castle. They still have power. But corporations are only about stock value. They really have no principles. Like Trump. They have the wealth to deal with many issues. If Trump has to be bought, buy him. They cannot risk the future of a company past Trump. They sacrifice in the short term for the long term survival. They can keep doing this for a while. Many corporations provide an essential service and two or three companies are essentially a monopoly in any field. We will pay more for cell phone service if it comes to that. We will buy food distributed by a small number of food companies. 

There is some assumption that there will be normalcy, but corporations will survive no matter what. If the government fails in a bif way, such as with transportation, then we are all in trouble.

I have to say this is about as depressing as Trump ever got for me. MAGA voters will take years to learn. Trump is holding up pretty well in public, and whatever health problem he has may not take him down anytime soon.

MAGA-voter Men are Cavemen

I am addressing mostly men here. I've met a few people the last 12 years that I spotted immediatly as Trump voters. And heard their views on real life things that had nothing to do with Trump. Many were hard working white working class. Very proud of "never collecting welfare" and generally satisfied of their role in life. Which they see as something that has nothing to do with government, other than the local politics of a city. Someone has to fix the roads and all the we have to pay by tax. Schools they are not that enthusiastic about. They hated school. They then compare theirs to other people, the educated elites. It seems you had to learn something well and pass tests. A few of them will encourage any kids they have, especially to more technical fields. But they feel like they have paid for the education of me and my kids that went to college. "They got something and I paid for it." It is a sort of envy of us and dislike of all things to do with the federal government. They do see the need for specialists and the education of them, but other tasks of the government are seen as mainly a hindrance and "too much regulation." The things to do with the environment are all seen as fake.

There is then all the other stuff to do with the MAGA men. They are the tough guys, the bread winners and women are seen as having a lesser role. Careteakers, for sure, as there are children. They long for the old days when we had very independent families and more of a rural life. A little past hunting and gathering.

Trump was seen as a tough guy, Biden (after the debate for sure) as a wimp. Trump bragged about all the things he will do. Who would imagine he starts bragging about building things, like ballrooms. Before the election it was just about tearing things down that were "too much government." Trump has been proud of every single thing he has cut down. Also part of the caveman mentality. You have to show daily the achievements to your tough males of your clan.

The Atlantic in its story on resistance by David Brooks summarized the "achievemnets" as all in the category of male toughness (see the part after SNIP) :

For the United States, the question of the decade is: Why hasn’t a resistance movement materialized here? The second Trump administration has flouted court decisions in a third of all rulings against it, according to The Washington Post. It operates as a national extortion racket, using federal power to control the inner workings of universities, law firms, and corporations. It has thoroughly politicized the Justice Department, launching a series of partisan investigations against its political foes. It has turned ICE into a massive paramilitary organization with apparently unconstrained powers. It has treated the Constitution with disdain, assaulted democratic norms and diminished democratic freedoms, and put military vehicles and soldiers on the streets of the capital. It embraces the optics of fascism, and flaunts its autocratic aspirations. |snip|"Although Trump’s actions across these various spheres may seem like separate policies, they are part of one project: creating a savage war of all against all and then using the presidency to profit and gain power from it. Trumpism can also be seen as a multipronged effort to amputate the higher elements of the human spirit—learning, compassion, science, the pursuit of justice—and supplant those virtues with greed, retribution, ego, appetite. Trumpism is an attempt to make the world a playground for the rich and ruthless, so it seeks to dissolve the sinews of moral and legal restraint that make civilization decent."

This also ties in with all the machismo that the Joe Rogan fans display. Even taking vaccinations was for wimps.

The young men today seem to be craving some of these caveman jobs they no longer need to do. Just sitting on the couch playing videogames (Mike Johnson meme here) does not achieve it. 

A lot of the machismo is rather thin, like retired National Guard officer Hegseth talking about warrior ethos. Hegseth has served in Afghanistan. He may have some real experience. Even thinner is the machismo presented by Kristi Noem, amounting to wearing costumes with no real badges or rank. But the attitude from all this is enough for MAGA-men. Trump himself will fail with his hard leadership image when he becomes physically weak. When he can no longer climb the longer steps of Air Force 1, that is the end.

All displays of empathy are for wimps. Trump has no problem putting out an example of this. Greed and stepping on anyone to get your goals is the ideal. JD and all the others try to copy him.

All support to anyone with a need is just feeding the people that really do not need to survive. You have to stand on your own and never beg for help.

The entire taking care of citizens (as far as needs, help going to individuals) in terms of social programs and plans for our happy planet (environment) have been forever Democrat programs. All the ones Trump wants to cut. The concept is explained well in an Onion item related to the 1980 election:

Finally, there are women. Of course, MAGA men of the younger age will not find the women as easily as the Democrats. The women need to be slaves to men.

It is strange that Trump was seen as some sort of support for women in early days. This could all be framed as looking out for white Christians. He was protecting them from transgenders in bathrooms and from the "great repalcement theory." Their way of life would survive. At least in suburbs and rural towns.

If the fear and hate prevail through the next few presidential elections, there may not be a way back. The US will breawk up into red and blue regions.

Who Are These People?

Donald Trump was annoyed by Obama from the start. He entered poltics and ran for real in 2016. He, with media tools and Fox News, was able to reach people that never really followed poltics. A candidate endlessly sending social media messages was a new thing. No senator or congressman in 2016 was doing it. The president had social media accounts. The staff sent out some positive messages on and off.

I grew up in the Midwest, my high school was outside a major city. It was 60s and 70s suburbia. I had an idea of what America was and a sense of Americans. It was a predictable world, all the way to about 1990. I was never surprised by anything Reagan said.

But then Trump happened, and Fox News before that. Who are these people? They are not happy with anything. Trump most of all. Other than enjoying babbling to crowds or the press, the rest of his day is spent with hate and revenge.

The large numbers of extreme right wingers are into being tough men. Those that have deficiensies might as well die. Their thinking is Nazi era eugenics. The master race will survive.

I avoided these people for most of my life. But for 50 plus years I did not even know they were there in that number, 30-40 million voters. There are entire communities consisting of nothing but MAGA voters.

We had hippies and college and all sorts of experiments going on in the early 70s.

Our bands poked fun at the establishment. We were content doing our own thing most of the time. Politics was not much. We had a bad president, we got rid of him.

America swings left and right in some 8-10 year cycles. The current extreme right authoritarians only won by 1.5%. Yet they cannot stand us or pretty much anyone who is not a white Christian. And education is apparently bad. 

We invented most of the nice things you are enjoying. Technical stuff, cancer cure etc. We went to college for that. It was not necesary for them and it turned us into elites. We understand stuff well, and pretty much produce all change. They work for an hourly wage and simply produce things or provide a service.

We were never so persistent in our efforts to wipe out the opposition as Trump is. to keep himself out of jail. But he only has the MAGA hatred tools to do it with.

So, to simplify our hippie ideal of the 70s, and compare it to now, we are in a new swing in politics. Not just right and left. Now it is love and hate. They have absolutely no tolerance. Democracy is tolerance. That they have forgotten.

We will have to characterize these people sometime later. But it is worth pointing out that even though they clearly have sharp views on much of life and us, most of it is still just hate. Hate and fear. And they have a leader, Trump, who is psychologically at some extreme. His feelings are a bad model for anyone, and I think he lacks empathy altogether.

Added Note from Lynn on Threads, explaining these folks:

"I am not a Trump supporter but I think it has something to do with permission structure. Trump allows/enables us to be our worst selves (greedy, sexist, racist, victim, violent). Kindness, generosity, manners, responsibility and self-control are now "woke."

Prequel: The story of American Fascists

 

Rachel Maddow is a journalist for MSNBC who switched to hosting her show only once a week this year. This left her with time to focus on her books. There is also a free Podcast of the Prequel book. Thanks to the current Trump-led politics, she wanted to explore ideas in the 20th century, starting from the Depression and moving on to the World War. Political history is not usually of interest to readers when presented this way, but rather through biographies of interesting or controversial leaders. A book like this becomes a list of hundreds of names. But it was quite timely in 2023 and the year of chaotic 2024 events in politics was still ahead. "They are eating our cats and dogs!"

Right before the main text of the book is a so-called “cast of characters” list. The rest of their lives after the 1940s are described in an appendix at the end. Even the most famous of these are strange names to the reader. In the book, President Roosevelt met Father Charles Coughlin, who hosted a popular anti-communist program on his radio show. But soon the gentlemen parted ways. Coughlin joined the anti-Jewish groups that began to appear here in the 1930s. Their propaganda supported Germany, and a few characters in the book even got into Hitler's inner sphere. Father Coughlin began to support fascism quite publicly, because democracy was supposedly too weak for communism. Communism was always associated with Jews here at the time. Coughlin gave a speech in Chicago to 150,000 listeners in 1936. That is considered the first mass event of fascism. At the grassroots level, secret fascist organizations began to appear. It was believed that Jews had infiltrated everything, and President Roosevelt was really Mr. Rosenfelt.

At this point it becomes clear that Maddow's goal in the book's story is to tell exactly how fascist leaders come to power. The formula has not changed even in modern times. The leader needs to come up with some kind of threat to scare the voters. The leaders themselves may be somewhat racist, but they need to exaggerate the threat that threatens the majority of the population. In today's world, it is always foreigners or those of a different religion. No actual facts or numbers should be presented, but stories should be told that make the threat clear to everyone. When a leader scares voters enough, change in that country will happen very quickly.

When we get further along in the book, we hear that Congress was interested in the activities of another country, Germany, in our politics. There were a large number of German speakers in the country. The children were sent to summer camps modeled on Hitler Youth summer camps from Germany. Martin Dies was the chairman of the Un-American Committee and the committee tried to find out the situation of both Jews and Nazis up until 1940. But the Nazis' actions were not exactly known and communism was more feared. Dies prepared a report on the German and Nazi propaganda campaign in the USA, but it did not make much of an impact. At that point, Germany was more focused on another goal than recruiting Nazis in the USA. Hitler's propaganda was trying to prevent the USA from joining the World War. However, if Hitler were to conquer all of Europe, what was the point of sacrificing American soldiers for the cause? However, the American conspirators continued their project to make a revolution and put our own Hitler in power. There were already pro-German representatives in Congress. They even used the free postal service of Congress members to distribute propaganda letters. Among public figures, Ford and Lindbergh were fascists.

Before the end of the World War, prosecutor John Rogge led a trial of well-known people in 1942 called The Great Sedition Trial. Over 40 were eventually charged with planning a rebellion. Diplomat Lawrence Dennis, one of the book's main characters, was involved in the prosecution. The man was an unusual fascist, as one of his grandparents was black. The long-drawn-out trial ended when one of the judges happened to die. No decision was reached. But it is estimated that there were at least thousands of people organized into conspiracies, all ready for some sudden takeover. Communication between the groups was minimal. A few people were aware of almost all the state-level groups. In our modern world things are completely different through social media.

Joseph McCarthy, who became famous in the 1950s, was a bystander in these events, but this was a good model for tracking people that were seen as enemies and their eventual exposure. He continued to hunt down spies and traitors as communism became a new fear. The rest became our 1950s politics.

Maddow's Prequel title is probably a play on words that brings up the Trump era. Trump's sudden rise in 2016 and one term as president, with his subsequent Capitol takeovers, can then be seen as "the sequel." Democracy is therefore again under threat.

It's our country too

Mehdi Hassan runs short debates with a room full of usually young peoole. Who have some conservative ideas.

I had a debate with a local guy named Tim on a FaceBook forum. he and some others noted my name and it was going toward "if you don't like it here, why don't you go back to where you came from?"

Me: I've been a citizen 50 years. How long have you been a citizen, Tim?

He did not come back for that. But I would say 35. I have paid taxes that built his interstate highways.

So we are here, some 50 million of us. They can't send us all back. And it would require a court case for each. For now, opposing the president does not qualify as treason, or opposing one before you had citizenship. As green card immigrants, most of us were not very political in public. But now my friends in that status do not dare to post political stuff at all. They remove all social media off their phones if they travel and re-enter at a busy airport. A few cases of deportation took place as the person had not kept papers up to date and some anti Trump comments were found. You have to renew your visa every year.

I'm pretty sure we are inluded in his list of "the enemy within." Waiting for the courts and states to push back.

As a young man I experienced some threats from authority figures. At the time I did not take them as a serious threat, a policeman controlling a crowd for example. But now the new generation of immigrants, legal immigrants, is essentially silenced. I had accepted America as it was for 50 years. I had political leanings and I voted to at least contain authoritarianism. Reagan was not a favorite. He cleaned up Peoples' Park in Berkeley in the way Trump is "deporting" the homeless now. All those things back then were somewhat under control. Now they are not. Only the states are holding Trump back. 

Homelessness is a difficult problem and will not go away soon. Countires with money provide homes for as many as they can. The step to get them indoors is the most improtant one.

As far as their hatred, MAGA folks and the uneducated working class have developed a resentment of anyone who went to college, the elites deciding things like vaccine safety and pretty much all Dmocrats. I found a military member of our party finding the older generation hating her for just being a Democrat. 

Undecided voter..or low information voter? Why parties seem unconnected to the voter

The United States is a big place. Lots of cultures, economies, climate, landscape. All this produces a bit of infinite variety in what is important to people. To farmers in the prairie it may be mostly rainfall. But severe weather has also entered our lives.

The fact that we have 340 million people and a small area on the East Coast houses our government makes many feel that politicians, once moved there, can't really be in touch with daily lives in all our states. The views of the federal government range from hatred, by MAGA folk, to a neutral one by the undecided and independent voter. They do not see much benefit personally from the government. The left has the educated elites who see things like education important. It is seen as a human right to have a basic education. I would say most MAGA voters actually hated school.

Trump, with his two separate terms, is able to be a bit of an outsider still. He is now floating an idea of rebates. He has indeed collected tariffs from goods we sell in store. But now he is able to frame it as "Trump is giving you your money back" and not make it look like the deep state or evil goernment is involved. Biden made bold moves as well, forgiving student loans. But those went to the elites.

The politicians attempt to give you a picture of what is wrong and what should be done. Things like the economy are always there, but even there, prices, wages and inflation do not give a voter much of an idea. They only react when they lose something. It could be a benefit or a job. Trump was good at putting blame on groups. "They are ripping you off." Other than that, in normal times the current president is pretty much always blamed for the econoy. That is why the party in power often changes two years into a prsident't term. Normally. Trump will push through with a lot of executive power. At least till the election of 2026. He pretty much has to. If we still count on democracy, that two years is all he has.

The voter had a good feel for a presidential candidate. Their hunch about who was to do something for them was formed over days, weeks. Sometimes over a longer term. A low rating for Biden for month after month certainly meant something. 

They then make some bond with a candidate and vote based on that. It may be a lack of overall feel that makes a voter decide. "I just don't know about Kamala." Some charisma is needed for all candidates. No Walter Mondale is ever going to win. Today's world needs short punchy things said by candidate. So far only Newsom has gone full into this type of ridiculing of Trump.

The voter then votes, and also correctly assumes that the president is the important vote. A US president has tremendous power and a fixed four year term. Doing reawlly badly will get you one term. Vice presidents who run ofter end up not as capable as the president they served under. Prime ministers can be voted out any time.

The main problem is that politics is not that interesting to most people. Or they do have issues that politics could solve, but no interest or time. Voters have a much less defined idea of their congressman or governor. The party does carry some clue. A GOP candidate is always going to cut taxes. But there is somehow less need to find out more. They may vote along the party line or on a single issue. We now have a lot of independents, and many are not that deeply interested in politics. They seem to remember negative things about both parties well. Yet they are eventually able to vote for those Democrats and Republicans. There is often a less than 3% majority of seats in the House for the winner. Senators are seen as old fuddy duddies and young people are not excited. Democrats would do better with young senators. The independents either like the person for a term or two or know nothing at all about their own senator. The elections are too far apart for the senator to be much in the news in the state except the year of the election.

The small groups that follow politics are from both ends. Educated people seem to know a lot and get frustrated with the general public not finding out much. We have most of the information on many topics. At the other end, uneducated voters are mostly fascintaed by conspiracy theory. If you connect it to an item the right is obsessed with, such as child trafficing, you can direct voters to believe that Democrats are the cause of it.

It is a big job to wade through all this stuff. Before an election, people start putting in questions into Google. Google AI told me that ICE has arrested 300 000 people and that some 50 000 are detained by ice. I tend to doubt the first number. They have maybe detained that number, but have released many due to lack of evidence. They number of arrests itself is a quota they are trying to meet. Other sources cite 200-400 000 deported.

You can try to Google some other items yourself. Yes I know, Google is somewhat bowing to Trump and making some small gestures to appease him. But I like short explanations. Google AI does that.

MAGA consists of racists and conpiracy nuts

The racist part was outlined last time. They believe pretty much everyone is ripping them off and making things hard for them. But there is another major side to MAGA folks.

The people there are not really going to check for facts. The reason is that they believe the world is run by conspiracy. Trump merely needs to call something a hoax and it was dismissed. Back in 2024. 

The conspiracy angle then leads them to travel the internet looking fot these conspiracies. They find company. they even like the talk show hosts feeding the stuff to them. They sound like regular people. None of that woke science. Science and vaccines are largely a conspiracy to them. Climate too. It's almost like a religion. You have to believe in conspiracies to start with, and then everything falls into place.

Trump with his show business hunches was able to grab every conspiracy in the news and spin it in his favor. "They are eating our cats and dogs." Endless tales were made up by picking and choosing to make all illegals dangerous criminals.

It is hard for us regular people to undestand the conspiracy mind set. You will never have the solution or truth of anything revealed, the conspiracies just generate more conspiracies. One thing that may help explain it is the fact that they hated governmnet to start with. The government only helped other people, not them.

Now Trump is the government. It was bound to come. He is finally an insider. He seems to be much more in control, or at least Project 2025 is. The Trump that suffered all the injustice he claimed was only in 2016-2020. He cannot even claim the courts are against him now. He is no longer a victim or underdog.

The media circus will not stop. Even WSJ jumped in. The "attention" thing is going all wrong for Trump.

The backlash to the Epstein material is Trump attacking Obama, for a change. I guess Biden is too senile as a target. Anyway, some of the MAGA people seem to be having fun with it. Meanwhile, more Epstein and Trump material is trickling out.

I have come to a description of the MAGA mind, reduced to "they are ripping me off." I never found the mix of conspiracy theory and politics appealing. There was nothing in it for me personally. Some truth would eventually trickle out.

I did not undertand the conspiracy mind. This was a tiny news item. For them it was the headline of the day. there it is. There was no need to release anuthing such as a lack of material. Yet they did. They too failed to judge the conspiracy believing mind.

They are ripping me off!

What was Trump about? What was MAGA about? Someone was ripping them off. Their world is a zero-sum world. If someone gets something, it is away from me. Medicaid, kids in headstart, maybe that blind man with the cane. "I'm paying for that talking traffic light for him!"

Trump is the same way. But he now has power. He is assuming powers he does not have. And when someone points that out, he feels he has been ripped off.

I totally missed understanding them. I am not against being taxed and I can see a need for many things we fund. I am shocked public schools being placed aside, so the GOP can build conservative institutions at all levels. Or maybe they just want the white working class uneducated.

Anyway, Fox News has been feeding this stuff to them for years. For at least 30 years the conservative media has been broadcasting all this stuff. And I failed to see that just by our presence, the teachers and scientists and people who get funding for jobs that are aimed at improving our lives...well, we have been ripping them off them too. What do they care about Harvard curing cancer, if they do not get paid enough for a comfortable living? Our effort, research, is a waste that is away from them. The elites must not be supported by tax funds! Pay for it yourself! Get your rich eltites to pay your research!

Day in and day out Fox points out all the waste, all the spending that does not give the working classes immediate benefits.

The working poor are finally getting relief from Trump cutting all the waste and deporting the aliens. Why were the aliens a ripoff to them? They got something from the government. Something the natural born Americans did not get.

The bonus was that their racists ideas, rejecting all foreign culture (except Mexican food and sweet and sour chicken) that they did not even want to see or hear in public.

Trump himself now sees the US as something he more of less owns, since he can profit from it. In this sense his strage economic ideas com into play. ALL the other countries are ripping him, as CEO, off. Trade cannot be something both countries would gain something from.

The bigger picture is just as bad. The MAGA voter is convinced his problems are the result of poor people "sitting on the couch." They should get a job. Well, most of them are working. But can't pay the rent etc. You meet them every day, MAGA. Delivering packages of stocking shelves at Wal Mart.